37 | Twenty Years of ADHD Student + Parent Coaching with Leslie Josel

Oct 11

37 | Twenty Years of ADHD Student + Parent Coaching with Leslie Josel

Today I’m joined by Leslie Josel, an award-winning ADHD student and parenting coach. Leslie is an author of three books, creator of the award-winning "Academic Planner: A Tool For Time Management," and an internationally acclaimed speaker. Global Gurus has recognized Leslie as one of the top time management experts in the world for seven years running!

In 2004, Leslie founded her company, Order Out of Chaos®, after her son was diagnosed with ADHD. Order Out of Chaos' mission is to help parents guide their students to success in learning and life. I met Leslie through the National Association of Organizing and Productivity Professionals and regard her work highly.

Tune in to hear our conversation about these key topics:

Leslie's journey to becoming a top time management expert and renowned parenting coach
The importance of rational & reasonable goals
How planning doesn't come naturally to everyone
Out-of-the-box solutions that lead to “organized enough”
Barriers to entry & protecting your time
The role mood plays in procrastination
Leslie's "batch and focus" method to stay organized, fight procrastination, and manage feelings of overwhelm

If you would like to learn more about Order Out of Chaos and the other award-winning resources Leslie offers, visit her website or find her on Instagram.

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GUEST INFO:
Leslie Josel, Award-winning ADHD-student, Parenting Coach, and Founder of Order Out Of Chaos®
Websites: Order Out of Chaos
Facebook Group: ADHD Student & Parent Support Group
Instagram: @order.out.of.chaos
Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leslie-josel-adhd-student-parent-coach/

MENTIONED:
Episode 33: Procrastination is a Tool

RESOURCE:
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Intro: Welcome to a Pleasant Solution, Embracing An Organized Life. I'm your host, certified life coach, professional organizer, and home life expert, Amelia Pleasant Kennedy and I help folks permanently eliminate clutter in their homes and lives. On this podcast we'll go beyond the basics of home organization to talk about why a clutter-free mindset is essential to an aligned and sustainable lifestyle. If you're someone with a to-do list, if you're managing a household and if you're caring for others, this podcast is for you. Let's dive in.
Amelia: Welcome to Episode 37, “20 years of ADHD, Student and Parent Coaching with Leslie Josel.” Leslie Josel, an award-winning ADHD student and parenting coach is the founder of Order Out of Chaos, a company whose mission is to help parents guide their students to success in learning and in life. She's an award-winning author of three books. Creator of the Award-Winning Academic Planner, a Tool for Time Management, and an internationally acclaimed speaker. Leslie has been named as one of the top time management experts in the world by Global Gurus seven years in a row. She continues to learn from her audiences, sharing her observations with readers of ADDitude Magazine in her weekly, “Dear ADHD Family Coach” column. I encourage you to check out her website, Order Out of Chaos for loads of helpful tools and resources, including monthly webinars.
I am so happy to welcome my guest today, Leslie Josel. We met via the National Association of Organizing and Productivity Professionals and you were a Founders’ Award winner in 2018, which is like the biggest award in our organization and industry. And then you kindly served on the awards and recognition committee. So say hello and we're also celebrating that you're 20 years in business too.
Leslie: 20 years in business. Some of you weren't even born.
Amelia: I love it.
Leslie: I'm so happy to be here. I have mad love for all of you listening and watching. I have mad love for this woman. She's brilliant and professional and fun. And so anything you would ever ask me to do, I would do. And I have to tell you because I'm super honest, I don't say that all the time. So thank you for actually having me come. So I'm really excited to be here.
Amelia: Receive that. Oh my goodness, I love it. So tell everyone just a little bit about yourself and then we'll dive in.
Leslie: Sure. So I'll give you what I call the reader's digest version because I don't want to take up to 20 years. It could take a long time. Give you the reader's digest. What I do is I actually invite you all, if you want to learn more, to go to our website and I'm sure you all have that in your show notes. But here is a little bit of my story because I think it's an interesting one. So, 20 years ago, which would be about 2004, my son at the time was five and he was diagnosed with ADHD. Now you gotta put yourself back in 2004, the internet wasn't even a thing. It was not a thing at all. So there were no podcasts and telesummit and research right at your fingertips to help you on that journey. So I really had to rely a lot on my gut and my instincts to figure out what was going to help my son untangle his world, both at home and at school.
And with no like interest, knowing even if organizing or productivity or any of that was a business, I started putting systems and structures and things in place that really did help him. And true story, friends started to notice, they would come over and see certain things. And then a friend of a friend mentioned it and I got a phone call from a woman named Lisa saying, my friend told me what you did in your own house. My kids have ADHD also, can you come? And I'm not kidding you, within two weeks I had four phone calls and I worked, I had a more typical job and I turned to my husband who has ADHD mind you and there was a reason for that. And I go, what do I do? Like I don't do this for a living. And he goes, well you do now.
Amelia: That's exactly what I was going to say. You do now.
Leslie: You do now. I am a very type A, very organized, very Virgo-esque person. I was like I'm a very linear thinker so for me there was no, unless I could figure it all out, I didn't want to even dip my toe. And I always say, thank God I am married to a man that has ADHD because he could see the bigger picture. Within a month I quit my job. Within six months I had three teams. You have to remember back then this wasn't a thing. And particularly supporting families with children with ADHD was really not a thing. So now we're going to fast forward 20 years. We are virtual. So you do not need to live where I'm, we're virtual. So all of our products, our programs, our workshops, our webinars and our coaching, both for students and parents are all online.
We are a global community, about 75,000 people, students, teachers, related professionals and parents who come to us really for the mission to help their students be successful, neurodivergent or otherwise be successful in learning and in life. And through that I write folks, as I speak, I write a monthly column for ADDitude Magazine and do a host of other things to support families.
Amelia: It's absolutely tremendous. And I know my listeners right now are like already like, I want to know this woman, her business and all of the things. Before we dive into the bulk of our conversation, I would love to take a step back to your childhood and ask what organization looked like for you growing up.
Leslie: So I think sometimes we're born with the change a little bit and then sometimes we do it out of like major necessity. So I don't want to make everybody go, oh my goodness. But I do have to tell you this. My mom was diagnosed when I was four years old with breast cancer and she was terminally ill. I'm not going to, obviously we're not on that type of podcast. But my mom was actually kept alive for those, I think I want to say about 12 years or 13 years longer than she should have been. My household had a lot of love, but it was a very unsettling household. My mom would go in and out of hospitals. My father had to take care. I had an older sister. So I gravitated to systems and lists because they helped me, made me very blunt, helped me control a world that I grew up in that was very, very, very out of control.
Like very out of control and I don't want to go down like that dark and twisyt, not because I can't handle it but that's not what people came for. But imagine if you don't know and you come home from school whether or not your mom is going to be there. Did she go back to the hospital? Is she home? Did something even worse happen? So for me, I started to like gravitating to ordering anything I could. So I was a school supply girl. I was making sure everything was organized and perfect, but I hate the word perfect because obviously as we got over, but for me back then, that's what I needed. So I was the kid who rearranged the pantry because it calmed the chaos, otherwise very chaotic world and that need to have things organized and calm. I actually think sometimes as we get older, we get more organized.
I actually was the reverse. I think as my life went on and things settled and I got married, meaning I started to build my own life and have kids, I actually let go a little bit of that like every “I” needs to be dot and every “T” needs to be crossed. I have a junk drawer, I have a mess on my floor right now, whereas growing up absolutely never would've happened.
Amelia: Thank you so much for being vulnerable and sharing that because it resonates steeply with me. I am seeing themes in folks that I interview about this idea of controlling our space and wanting to really have that anchor when things around us are not as stable as we might hope. And folks come to me for multiple reasons, but often either they want to learn the skills and tools to organize or they're overly perfectionistic from some sort of habits that they've developed and they want to do what you just described, which is begin to let go and allow there to be a junk drawer or a pile on the floor as well.
Leslie: So I always feel like, when I started my business, and particularly when you're working with maybe even a neurodivergent population, you have to make goals that are rational and reasonable. The other thing for me is it was one thing to be a teenager and make things organized or even be a single woman or even just married where I didn't have a million other things pulling at me. But organizing, I always say, doesn't live alone. So a lot of things happen. First of all, things in your life, there are life changes. So you get married, you have a baby, you move to an apartment. So if your organization is this way and your life has moved, that's where the disorganization happens. But what I really found was that it got busy. I had two kids. I had a kid that was neurodivergent.
I was growing a business that was taking off faster than I could get my sea legs under it and a myriad of other things. So part of it was very deliberate on my end to say, no, I can't sustain this anymore. And part of it was just life saying to me, you can't sustain this anymore. I just don't have the time to make sure that every fork is turned this way. Just throw the damn forks in the drawer, Leslie. It's fine. The forks are where the forks should go, but are they just jumped in there at this point? And there's a thing called “organized enough.” I think that was even when I started working with ADHD families, that was something that they really grabbed onto. Was this enough?
Amelia: For sure. It is so freeing.
Leslie: Because it's manageable, it's freeing. But it's also obtainable. The other thing is it gives you agency. And I feel like with all the work we do, that choice and control and that agency of it's enough. And maybe there's, you could open my drawer. My makeup is just sitting in one big pile. It's fine. For me it's organized enough, but yet my kitchen is probably a little more organized because that's a little more important for me. So you do have agency and control to determine and decide, take a step back. Take a step forward. As long as it's not causing you stress and or chronic and it's affecting other areas of life, then let it go.
Amelia: You all can see why I love Leslie. You bring so much passion and energy to everything that you do. And in this world of being an ADHD academic and life coach, you notice something in your own home and you went on to build this company that's, you said 75,000 people that you've reached and included in your community. I know that you explicitly state that the skills that Order Out of Chaos teaches, study skills, time management skills, they don't come naturally to all of us, to all humans. I would love for you to tell us a story or two about the relief, what you just mentioned, “organized enough” that folks, they hear this explained that it isn't something that comes naturally to all of us.
Leslie: Can I actually use planning and not organizing?
Amelia: Sure! Yeah.
Leslie: I love this story because it's so out of the box. I'll start here. So one of the things is that, again, we never talk in absolutes. Everybody shows up on the table with their own strengths. But what I have noticed over the years of doing the work I'm doing, especially years and years ago when I was working like myself or my teams, now we are completely virtual, we are coaches, we're academic life coaches and parenting coaches, so we don't really do organizing anymore, but will suggest and do. But what I always felt was the way to look at things was not what system can I put in place. And it doesn't necessarily have to be organizing, be it time management or even a planning system. But the way I looked at things wasn't from like A to Z. It wasn't like what can I do to make this system better? Or what kind of organizing system can I put in place? I always came through it through the back door. I mean I'm dark and twisty a little bit. I was always like, the way to look at it is what's getting in the way. What are the barriers to entry?
Amelia: Yes.
Leslie: And that's a very different way than most of us look at organizing. But you have to because there are a few things that go into that. The joke I always remember was when I first told people I was going to do this for a living, you got to remember 20 years ago, no one knew about this. They said, oh it was your first class, like how to organize a garage. And I'm like, no. My first class was actually on learning styles. Because how you learn is how you organize. Are you a piler or a filer? Are you a revealer or a concealer? I love those words because when brain space is limited, you remember soundbites. But it was always for me about going, what are the barriers to entry? So for most, particularly those who are neurodivergent, if they don't see things, they don't exist.
Amelia: Mmmhm.
Leslie: It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing. So it's looking around and saying, what are my barriers? My barrier to entry could be something as simple as a closet door. Then take the closet door off. I did that for my son. 20 years ago that was revolutionary. Not now, but back then I did it because I'm like, well he can't see what's in there, so why do I have it? I don't need it. I took the dresser out of the room and put clear bins because also the second thing I noticed that if there were too many steps involved, he wasn’t going to do it. So if all you had to do was take off his shirt and throw it in the bin. Remember, organized enough. There was a win for him. But I remember having a client, a student client, and I wanted to help him learn how to write things down.
He was a junior in high school and it was all about, I can keep it in my head, I can keep it in my head. But it clearly wasn't working. And I noticed during our session, he would sit and he would doodle on a roll of paper towels. And I said, well what happens if you write your homework down every day on paper towels? And he goes, “Wait, I don't have to write in a planner?” Now this is from a woman who has a planner company. I'm like no you don't, writing in a planner is two steps. I have to get you to write before I can get you to write in a planner. And that in and of itself was a really big aha moment for him that no one, again, he had choice and control and agency over how it was going to happen. But more importantly, I was only going to move him from A to B.
And true story, he carried a roll of paper towels around for his entire junior year. He would rip one off, he would write all his assignments, he would put it, do it and then we finally. But I love that story because it shows an organizing system that we might not be thinking of. It shows us those that are out there going, on the square peg trying to fit in a round hole. Why? Find something that resonates with you, if you're a paper towel guy. And I know it sounded funny, but I wrote that in a book I wrote and for some reason that story resonates with everybody. And I think it's for all those reasons. Giving him agency, giving him control, and it made him organized.
Amelia: Two things come up for me. One is the out-of-the-box solution. And I understand that parents and students, that's not the first thing that comes to mind. The out-of-the-box solution, right?
Leslie: It never comes to mind.
Amelia: So that's where seeking support can really help and just give you different ideas through community on solutions that'll work for you. As well as for listeners, what we don't often realize is how many tiny steps are required to complete any little task.
Leslie: Amen to that.
Amelia: I can't stand dressers honestly because they do add steps. They don't only just take up space in a bedroom, but like opening the drawer, folding the item, placing it in, and closing the door. Those are multiple steps that folks don't often realize are the barriers that you are speaking to.
Leslie: 100% and barriers to entry can be too much information. I always have the student in mind, but I find that one to be a very big one. Too much information could be a barrier to entry. You might have a client that's having a hard time getting started. Meaning if you're listening here, you might be getting started. Are there too many words on the page for me? Can I cover some of it up so my focus isn't all over the place? Like it's not just about, I always say it's not just about your barriers to entry or not always about your space and stuff. It's about time, not being able to know where you sit in time. And you know I’m a big time management girl. So how are you externalizing your time? How are you putting things out there that support you and clocks and calendars and phones and watches and timers? All of those externalizing items actually help you internalize time. So if you don't have those things, an analog, a wall counter, a planner, whatever, it is for you. That's actually a barrier to entry.
Amelia: Yes.
Leslie: What environment are you working in? Like, I don't know if you can see, environment is one of the most important things for lack of a professional way to help us with motivation, focus, and attention. So I don't know if you can see, I spend many hours in this room. It's orange and white and gray and happy. There's a candle burning because I'm a big scent girl. But what it's doing is lightening that motivation load for me. I don't wake up every morning going, “I'm in the mood.” Oh god no. So something else in my world has to share in that motivation load.
Amelia: And this is potentially this Prequel to Productivity that you were sharing with me.
Leslie: Exactly. So what is, I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to people, how are you setting up your environment so it's helping you to share? I love that, sharing in the load because we do, we feel like we always need to. So that's a barrier to entry. And yes, it's exactly when we talk about productivity, I always talk about that there are four things that go behind it. One of them is emotional, which would be my story, that is so emotional. What's getting in my way? What are my barriers to entry? What am I holding onto that I shouldn't be holding onto, all that stuff. Then there's your intellectual one. And I actually like that one because that's literally like, “Do you even understand what is being asked of you?” For a lot of people who are working, do you even know how to work? Do you know how to prioritize? Do you know how to plan? It's the skill of it. Then there's the environment, scent, music, open spaces, closed spaces, door closed, door open, comfy furniture, hard desk, whatever works for you, your best practices. All of that really helps you to be productive and to start. And then the last one is social. And what I mean by social is internal and external.
Amelia: Yes, your phone.
Leslie: Phone, which there's literally a study that says even if it's off and near you.
Amelia: Draws your attention.
Leslie: It inhibits you, well I'm going to say it, I hate this word. It actually says it makes you stupid. That's literally what it said. Please don't come after me. But I'm telling you what the study said, that even if it's off, even off, like shut down, like my phone is shut down, unfortunately it's right here on my desk it takes down your cognitive load and literally the research says, or in other words, it makes you stupid. That's if it's off. So imagine if it's on, that's the internal, but the external is how are you handling disruptions? How are you handling interruptions? How are you protecting your time? All of those things have to be figured out before we can just say to someone, “let's talk about chunking your day,” or “let's help you find a brand new act that's going to work for you.” None of that is going to work unless you truly understand those four quadrants.
Amelia: Thank you so much for sharing that because I know people desire quick fixes and the tool that will solve it all. But what you have just talked through is the layers and levels of pre-work and exploration and self understanding that has to happen to be able to improve your productivity, your sense of time, your sense of space, all of that.
Leslie: All of it has to, I mean, you don't have to have it all, trust me, I don't have it all figured out, but I kind of do. I think I do at this point in my life, really know. But you have to have some of it figured out because if you're just walking in and sitting down and not being productive, you have to understand like, well what is going on? Is it emotional or social? All of that. Is it my mood? Mood plays an enormous role in what people define as procrastination.
Amelia: I would love to talk about that because the stereotypical or the default understanding is that procrastination is about time management, which it really truly is about mood.
Leslie: It's really about mood management. So what was fascinating for me is that I wrote a book two years ago, but it's for students being very upfront, it's for students like high school and college, all about procrastination and I didn't want it to just be my voice. So we went back and we interviewed almost as many kids that we had worked with and asked them a million questions. So a lot of their stories are in here, but we also did some deep diving and research. And I kind of knew this because I hear it all the time from my kids. I'm not in the mood, I'm not in mood, I'm not in the mood. But here's what really does happen. And remember who I speak to so it's going to sound a little funny, my verbiage, but remember I speak to students or parents all day, but I want you to picture yourself walking down a road and you get to a fork of it.
And we say this to the right of that fork, if you made a right turn is what I call the “happy pretty.” That could be where Netflix lives. That could be your garden, it could be nordstrom.com, it could be a basketball court, doesn't matter, frozen yogurt, whatever fills you up and makes you happy. For some of you it's Instagram, whatever it is. And over there, if you make the left turn is the “dark and twisty.” I told you it was going to be very layman's terms. But the dark and twisty is what you need to be doing or want to be doing is there, so it could be homework if you're a student, studying. For an adult, it could be household chores, bills, writing a report, making that phone call to your child's teacher, whatever it is and what we say to ourselves is, “I need to first feel good,” think about, I want all of you to really think about this because I even do it. I have to feel good before I can do something that's not going to make me feel good. So what does that look like? Let me check Instagram for 15 minutes before I sit down and start on that article that I really don't want to be doing. That would be me.
Amelia: Yes.
Leslie: But I'm aware enough to say it's been 10 minutes, I'm done. Most of us don't. Most of us, one Netflix show turns into five Netflix shows or one hour playing video games turns into five hours of video games. And now we feel even worse about ourselves because we never went left and now time has passed. So why it might look like time, “Oh my god, I lost track of time.” See that's where the time piece comes in. I lost track of time. I didn't realize what time it was. I don't have any more time. It's not the time. It's what went on underneath to create that.
Amelia: I a hundred percent agree and just recently released a podcast episode around procrastination and this topic because it allows us to stay in that good feeling just a little bit longer. And then the layer of self-judgment that comes in afterwards where we beat ourselves up and say, “I should have turned left. Next time I'm going to turn left.” And we have to create that awareness of how the mood really plays into it.
Leslie: Really plays in. And so we tried to teach adults, so what can you do? So like, listen, there's a lot of little tips and tools out there. Music actually is one of the best things you can do. Music has been proven to, I always say there's “Leslie-proven” like 20 years of institutional history and then there's real research like a doctor in a lab and all that's been done. And music is research proven. Music helps us to attend, to plan and initiate. Think about it. All of you out there, like maybe you do Peloton, don't you pick your ride by music? I know we do in my house. I remember my husband likes the Seventies. I'm going to do like the Sixties, the Beatles or whatever it is. Music really gives us this visceral reaction to move and get going. I'm a girl of the Eighties. I can't exercise unless I hear my disco. So there is definitely something about music that helps us activate. So again, music is great.
One of my other favorite things to do to help is separating the setup from the task. So remember I talked to you about sharing motivation. When you set up your task and then don't do it at the same time, what happens then when you see it, it sends that message. It's going to help lighten that load because it's ready for you. So I found great success in that with students who will come home from school and set everything up to get ready to do homework but not sit down to do it right away.
Amelia: Take out the obstacle, the pre-planning, one step.
Leslie: Exactly. What's your barrier to entry? You're going to be saying that word “barriers to entry” and then you're going to laugh but I used to have a client that did all the things she hated to do on Monday nights. Why? She was a Bachelor Nation fan. I was too. Not so much anymore years ago I was, I loved it. But she loves the Bachelor and found that if she paired things she didn't like to do with things she loved to do, it lightens that whole, I'm not in the mood. It helped her not turn right. What happened is she stayed straight because she took what she didn't and did and paired them together. So the kitchen got cleaned, the laundry got done, and whatever she had to do was two hours. She said I got it, I was so productive because I had The Bachelor on. So I don't know what your thing is, but if you can pair something you like with something you don't, even like taking things to like if you love your garden, anything, any way you can kind of match them, works really, really well to help again, share in that load.
Amelia: So valuable. So valuable. Because yeah, taking your work outside to do in the garden in that positive uplifting environment, you can get something hard done while enjoying the outdoors. For sure.
Leslie: Absolutely.
Amelia: Well I could talk to you for ages. I know I can because we chatted for a long time before we even hit record. Let's wrap by revisiting that first question. Now as an adult what's one way that you employ organization or time management or planning in a creative way now?
Leslie: I mean this has share, I have a lot going on. I always say this, a lot going on. I run a very big business and family and friends and outside things and wake up to millions of emails and you don't see what's on my floor right now. And even I get overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed very easily because what'll happen, my brain will want to go in 40 directions. So I do something that I teach others because it really works for me. And I call it “batch and focus.” So for example, what I will do is literally I love timers and I know for some timers are anxiety producing. For me they work because it keeps me locked in. I will set it for now here's something funny, particularly because I work with neurodivergent people, I never set a timer for an even amount.
I always set things for odd because it's a little bit more like, oh I see that. When we set things for even it becomes like a white noise. So here I set like for 47 minutes or 52, but I pick one theme. So it might be, I'm just going to do my emails or I'm just going to like work on this thing for work right now or I have eight calls to make. So I batch and I pair like with like, because I find that's easier for me in my brain. So I don't ever do, like I'm going to write an email, then I'm going to make a call, then I'm going to, I don't do that because I see the waste of time.
Amelia: It makes sense. Because it's the task switching.
Leslie: Task switching that is taxing on the brain or I'm just going to like, I have to write a product sheet, whatever it's, I have to do. But I find that if I call it batch and focus. I work time over task always because it helps us see the end, which then helps us stay the course. But I pick one theme and I block everything out. So I might just say, work has to stop right now because I've got to make seven phone calls for something else. And that really helps me not only to initiate, but also helps me not be overwhelmed.
Amelia: Yes.
Leslie: I'm overwhelmed very easily. So batch and focus friends.
Amelia: I just love your brilliance Leslie. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. It was so fun.
Leslie: You're amazing. Lots of good nuggets in this one.
Amelia: Yes, for sure. So I want you to tell everyone how they can find you because they probably already have while listening, Order Out of Chaos, you have a Facebook group community, correct?
Leslie: Yes, we so many things.
Amelia: You have videos. You sell an academic planner that's ranked on Amazon as one of the best tools of all time. So tell the people.
Leslie: Okay, so the name of our company is Order Out of Chaos. The website is OrderOOChaos. If you go there, we want to make life easy. Remember the left’s and right’s and too many steps. You go there, you will find whatever you need. It could be the video, we have videos and things like that. I've written over 250 columns for ADDitude Magazine. They all live there. Or there's a product site. Our socials are all there. That's how you like to digest. If you want to be a member of our Facebook group, you can find it there. If you want to look at our services you can go or join us for our webinar. That's a big thing. We give monthly webinars to our community. We have some fabulous ones coming up in the Fall. So you can find it, I just say go there. The joke around Order Out of Chaos and we have our team meetings is that our website is the hardest working member of our team.
Amelia: Brilliant. I love it. I love it. Just keep it simple. Just go to the website, Order Out of Chaos.
Leslie: And hang there. Just go there and literally you'll find everything you need there.
Amelia: Yeah, I love it because I also can just say A Pleasant Solution on all the places.
Leslie: On all the places. You gotta make it easy because people, again, if you have to make too many turns, you're not going to say.
Amelia: Yeah, you're going to give up. It was my pleasure, Leslie.
Leslie: Oh, you don't know. I have such mad love and respect for you. She's fabulous, people. So stay here and listen to anyone she brings on because if they're talking to her, you're going to learn some good stuff.
Amelia: Thank you.
Leslie: You're welcome.
Outro: Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode. If you liked this episode and know of just one other person who'd get value from it too, I invite you to share it with them. I'd be more than grateful. I'd love to stay connected with you too. Make sure to follow this podcast to connect with me on Instagram @apleasantsolution and join my community at apleasantsolution.com. Talk to y'all soon and remember, you’re more organized than you think.